Yesterday evening I met up with a friend of mine and his wife (who, I should say, is also a friend). My friend is a writer (of non-fic, but that's kind of irrelevant) and I got to see what happens to me SO often happen to him; I got to be an observer. It made for interesting watching and conversation afterwards.
So. We, the three of us, got into conversation with a pair of chaps who were up here for work.
'What do you do?' one asked my friend.
'I'm a writer,' he replied.
And then it came. That test. That demand for someone to justify, to prove himself.
'Are you published?' asked the chap. 'What books have you written?'
Now, there was absolutely no malice or anything like that in the chap's question. But as my friend said afterwards, when you say you're a writer you almost always have to back it up.
If, for instance, someone said they were a bus driver, I very much doubt that anyone would have followed it up with, 'Really? So have you driven any buses? Have you driven any buses I'd have heard of?'
Or, if someone was a car salesman I doubt whether they'd have been asked if they'd sold any cars. Fish monger? 'Monged any fish?' And so it goes on.
Now, this whole thing raises two interesting points, as far as I'm concerned.
The first being that it can be frustrating to have to justify one's occupation (let's not forget that being a writer doesn't necessarily mean one writes books...). I AM a writer, I shouldn't have to give evidence - or should I? I know I've felt that often there's a level of suspicion when I tell people what I do (in fact, as an aside, I remember saying a little while ago, that I might stop telling people I write books because they often expect me to be far more interesting than I actually am).
(The second part of the first point is: writers can be grumpy and often mistake genuine interest for this supposed demand for evidence.)
Second point: what about those who call themselves writers but have yet to be published? Does someone asking them to prove themselves compound the worries and stresses they'll already have? Does it make them feel like failures? If it does, then does that mean that unpublished folk shouldn't say they're writers/novelists etc until they have something in print?
I'm not sure I know the answers to any of these questions and I'm certainly not suggesting that writers are being picked on - these are just some thoughts I've had that I thought I'd put out there. I'd be curious to know what you folks thought...
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(6 to go...)
A Little Vacation from Writing
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Yep, this resonates with me, Nik. What's worse though is being patronised about one's writing. (I'm saying this here as the person I'm talking about is a 'friend' on facebook so I daren't put it in your post there). But when someone I hadn't seen for ages found out I wrote, he responded: 'As long as it makes you happy'.
Well yes, it does, but ... eek... I did cringe!
I can't think of anyone outside the creative arts who is asked to justify or prove their occupation. I expect artists and actors go through a similar experience. I know I didn't use the writer tag until I was published, but deep down I wanted to. I was just scared of the inquisition. And I haven't had a book published, just shorts in magazines.
Good point, but I feel I don't have to justify myself to anybody. The happy circumstance would be to have an upcoming reading or a book trailer and give them the details to discover for themselves. especially if they've an I-Phone they can look it up straightaway.
I think while it's true about a car salesman or bus driver, if someone said they were in the armed forces, there would likely be an interrogation as to where they'd served, had they killed anyone etc etc.
I think it's maybe a wider issue of self-definition. Are we what we do for 8 working hours a day, or the children we bring into the world, or the wit and raconteuring we brighten up others' lives down the pub? Clearly we are an amalgam of all these facets.
Writers can be grumpy? Since -ing when? :-)
I've had this. I wonder if it is a default question from people not equipped with enough knowledge of the process to jump in with more relevant, less cringe-making questions.
Hi Nik,
This post really interested me as I just gave writer as my occupation when questioned by a US immigration official and had to think twice before doing so! To me writers come in many guises (some published, some not) and I think sometimes people who ask unhelpful questions are simply incredulous that someone has been brave enough to try and make a living doing something so creative and yet so precarious! Claire M.
Good questions. I don't have a book published, but I quite fancy calling myself a writer. To make me seem legit I also call myself a blog author. Maybe one day I'll get to call myself a proper author. For now though, unless I want to be harassed in conversations, and made to feel bad, I won't say I'm a writer :(
I think the 'are you published?' question is mostly curiosity. Also, I think people try to suss out whether you make a living from writing, or if you're a hobbyist... I think that's the stigma... When you're asked what you 'do' as a job. And writing is notoriously underpaid unless you're a best seller!
Personally I didn't call myself a writer until I had a book deal. I didn't feel as if I could justify it - I would have felt like a fraud. At the end of the day, if you aren't published, then really, isn't writing more of a hobby? I know, that doesn't seem right - 'hobby' sounds trivial - I'm a writer down to my bones, so it needs a bigger word, like 'calling'. But look at the question, when people ask what you do, they're really asking what you do to make money. They aren't asking you what makes you burn, keeps you awake at night and makes your brain fizz (although that would be a more interesting question) and when they hear 'writer' why shouldn't they be fascinated enough to ask what you've written? It's a bloody interesting career. If I met an actor I'd probably ask what he / she had been in. If I met a musician I'd ask what he / she had sung / written. It's about the creative arts - they interest people. Personally I love that feeling I get when people ask who my publisher is and I can answer Egmont. The look of awed surprise 'but that's a REAL publisher' is worth ten years of having to say I worked in Market Research while secretly shouting internally 'I'm a writer ... a writer!'
How about we all go out and intentionally sneak 'I'm a writer' into conversations - see how people react. I expect summed up stats will reflect your experience from last night, Nik!
Why? Are writers a misunderstood species?
I also have this reaction when I say to people, 'I'm a therapist', and they say, 'So do you have clients?'...
I've stopped reading into those questions/comments. once when I said I write fillers for newsletters and church bulletins I was pleasantly surprised when the couple remarked how wonderful that is. Seems they felt fillers were the best part of their church bulletin.
There are many parts to writing.
Yes, it's always a tricky one. And I must admit it took me a very long time to be able to tell people that that was what I do/am when they asked. But I always also get the next question which comes either with a sceptical or nervous face, depending on the person: "Should I know you?" Now how do you answer that?
I write most days in one form or another. I have a collection of poetry, a series of short stories and a novella on the go all at once. I flit between them depending upon my mood. I've only ever had short stories published in anthologies, possibly because I forget to submit things most of the time. What I do is write but when asked, I say I don't do anything, probably because I don't get paid to do anything.
I think 'being a writer' means different things to different people. In it's most basic form, if you write, you are therefore a writer. But there is a huge sliding scale between writing a shopping list, writing as a hobby, and writing as a professional. And even those positions can be negotiable.
I completely agree, Sally. And that's awful! How patronising! That's basically suggesting some forms are more difficult than others, which is just nonsense.
Hi Nettie. Thanks for stopping by.
Yes, I'll bet other people who work in the arts/entertainment biz suffer something similar.
And you're certainly a writer in my eyes!
Hello, Sulci Collective.
I think you're right - we shouldn't have to justify ourselves to anyone. I mean, it's nice to be able to say what our books are called, or where we can be read etc, but that's still some form of justification because we're only taken seriously once we've convinced someone (a stranger) that we're not frauds! That's the daft thing, I think!
And you're right re you're second point. I think it's important to be able to distinguish between genuine interest and suspicion.
Graeme, hello!
Oh you'd better believe it!
I think it is partly to do with not understanding the industry and process, yes. And why should they? Maybe it's simply to do with them not knowing how being a writer works.
Claire - yes, I think that probably has a lot to do with it.
Suz - this is the thing: why should you be harassed? You know?
Fair point, Sophie.
But (and this is just me...) if I was asked what I did for a living I don't think I'd reply by telling someone what I did as a hobby - and that may be why I get a little narked when I'm asked to prove it. Does that make sense? It does in my head!! :)
Hiya Bryony - as I've said before (somewhere!) I think there's a difference between genuine interest (which is lovely - though I don't ALWAYS want to be on duty and talking about my work - but that's another thing and, mostly, I love it) and being asked to prove things.
And I think the other thing I'd say (and this might just be me!!) is why should they look so surprised that you're with a (big/known) publisher, when you've already said that you're a writer? You know? Why should it be a surprise? It's that suspicion that bugs me.
It MAY just be me being grumpy though! ;)
Miss-neat - now THAT is a good idea!!
Mary - now that's a nice thing! Recognition is ace!
Ha! The 'should I know you' question's horrid. I just say 'no'.
Actually, when someone found out what I did recently they asked if I was famous. I simply asked if they'd heard of me - which said everything, I think!
Kathryn - interesting. I'd class you as a writer but I guess a lot of it is down to what you, as an individual, are comfortable with saying.
Sophie (hello again!). That's a very good point!
This has happened to be in several fields of endeavor.
I did radio for a while at a college with 50 booming watts of transmitter. "Oh, what station are you one?" "One you don't get."
I was in forensic anthropology. "Oh, what cases are you working on?" "I'm not really supposed to talk about that." Or, alternatively: "Seen anything gross?" "Well, I was scraping goo off the inside of a teenage girl's cranium today; it was sort of like pudding skim."
And so on.
I think the most annoying, though, was when I was in archaeology. "Did you dig up any dinosaur bones?" "We don't do that." "How about gold?" "We don't really do that, either." "Well what then?" "The broken pieces that someone left behind when they were making an arrowhead." "Oh."
I'm still laughing at: 'Have you monged any fish today!' 8-D
I write both poetry and fiction but having had more success with the poetry, I have tended to say: 'I'm a poet!' - if you say this not many brave souls venture into further questions and no-one ever, ever, ever asks to hear one of your poems!! You might as well say: 'I have leprosy' - as no-one would ask to see which bits are falling off! LOL
I'm a published author, but still don't say I'm a writer when asked the 'what do you do?' question.
To be fair, I think when people ask that they mean what you do for a living, and I don't make my living from writing - yet. I will say I'm a writer as well of course, but would only call myself a writer in that context if I made my whole living from it.
If you were a really keen tennis player and practised a lot, took it seriously, etc. you still wouldn't say 'tennis player' when someone asked you what you did. And if you did, you can be sure they'd ask when they were going to see you in Wimbledon.
I don't think there's any harm in saying you're a writer as long as you're equipped for the fallout. I think you should be proud to say that you're a writer whether you're making a living out of it or not.
Where I draw the line is using the term "Author." I wouldn't use that term unless I published a book of some sort.
As for those who ask about what stuff you've written, I think they're just trying to rule you out as someone famous ;).
Well, I read much more than I write, but I don't go around saying "I'm a Reader". I think people interpret "I'm a Writer" as a personal statement of purpose, a self-image, and yes, something whose success/justification is measured by publication (understandable really; even Angela Carter thought the writing process incomplete until the piece was published). As broken biro hinted, if you don't like the responses, see what happens when you say "I'm a poet", or (after giving them a penetrating stare) "I'm a psychiatrist".
C. N. Nevetes - so it isn't JUST writers then....!
Broken Biro! Ha! You know THAT'S how I'll answer that question next - by reading to them! Parfait!
Clodagh - I know JUST what you mean. And I LOVE your last point!
Good points, Jeannie! I suppose the line of definition needs to be drawn somewhere. What's interesting is that seems to differ from one person to the next.
I just say "I get by" and smile. The problem with writing is no one sees what you're doing and whether you're enjoying it. Playing in a band and painting is a whole lot different.
That's a really interesting point, Litrefs, the perception one. Because I regard what I do as a job, not particularly as a statement of being or way of life. But I can see how some people might see it.
Interesting stuff, huh?
There are many aspects to this, and I think part of it is that the majority of people can and do write (at some level or other - whether you're talking bog standard work e-mails or facebook updates or 'hobby' poetry), and so there's an immediate curiosity that you're making money from something 'anybody' can do - kind of the way you'd be fascinated if you met somebody who told you they earned a living from eating in restaurants or growing their hair.
However, I think the main reason people ask, "Oh, so are you published?" is that writing is one of very few professions where you can be a household name with almost nobody knowing what you look like. I'm convinced most people ask that question with the hope that you'll turn out to be a world famous yet stubbornly reclusive author.
As i haven't had a book published yet nor make my living from writing I don't tell people I'm a writer when they ask what I do. I say a homedad, which gets a similar response in that the next question I get is 'what do you do all day?' This gets me rather grumpy as anyone with three kids (two under five) will be aware, there is little to no time in the day not taken up with fulfilling their needs.
Those people I tell about my writing largely think it is just me pottering about with a quirky hobby. My friends were surprised when I told them about my Yeovil Lit Prize win. The other response I get is everyone thinks I want to be Dan Brown, Stephen King, and proceed to try and tell me what I should be writing to make money. I always tell them they should write their idea.
I suppose it comes down to a lack of understanding about how writer's get started in the business and how much work crafting your writing is. As Dan Purdue says most people think that because (most) everyone can write that writing quality fiction, non-fiction, whatever is easy. As we all know it isn't. Perhaps it's this lack of recognition at the time and effort that goes into what we do that makes us grumpy when folks ask for justification.
Also, in answer to the point about writers not being authors until they are published. A good number of the greats were unloved in their lifetime, some even unpublished. Does that mean they weren't authors until they got that recognition? The writing didn't change just the reception/perception of it over time.
Van Gogh is recognised by many as the greatest artist though his work was ignored/ridiculed back in his day but no one would say he wasn't an artist.
Oh, God. I hate hate HATE that question. The worst is when people say: 'Oh, it must be so nice to just get up, swan about, right a few words whenever the mood strikes...'
That's when I bare my teeth and spit out that writing is a job like anything else, and you're NOT always in the mood for you but you do it regardless.
Rant over!
"I'm a writer!"
"I'm a writer!"
"I'm a writer!"
I've had to learn to say it. I think we should embrace it, published or not.
"I'm a writer!"
(except sometimes, when I'm feeling shy and still only whisper it in my head)
this rings true on so many levels. i have had people who put me down for it, interestingly they have been friends in the past who don't read at all. I used to say I was unemplyed rather than admit the writer thing, but theres a stigma with that too sometimes. then i said writer, but arg the questions were always there and made me uncomfortable. Now, i don't say I'm a writer because those questions make me feel crap. That being said, I think its important to think of yourself as a writer in a way, its a vocation not a hobby i think. if you don't say to yourself yes i'm a writer,you'll never be as committed to it and possibly get sucess some day. So yes, i say i'm a writer to myself, but its a secret in a way :)
it's hard for people to get i think because they equate sucess with money and have a stephen king idea of what a real writer must be. if you aren't that they smile politely, if you're lucky :)
Hiya Dan (P) - interesting points - especially re the fact that most people wouldn't know what on earth most authors look like - which also hints at a sort of celebrity thing, which, I guess could be as exciting as it could be intimidating...
Dan (Powell) - I'd say that if you were serious about writing then you are a writer.
I wonder if every profession/job/vocation/whatever has its own set of irritating questions. I'd not really thought of that. I know I tend to be interested in people and in what they do and so I'll ask them; I wonder if it's as irritating to them as it can be for me (and you for being a stay at home dad, for instance).
I think your point about the posthumous recognition is really interesting and valid. I mean, Kafka, is a brilliant author and widely recognised as such- BUT, while he was alive and unpublished (I think?) I don't know whether he'd have called himself an author when asked, or simply said he worked in a back. Whereas Van Gough would have (I'm guessing) been perfectly happy to say that he was an artist.
Interesting, interesting...
Angela - you just can't win, can you! :)
I think that convincing yourself you're a writer is absolutely important and because that's about the quality of your output rather than any sort of vanity; and Story always comes first.
Nik
I usually say I'm a full time mum and if that doesn't make them glaze over, I move on to say I write in my spare time. I suppose it's because proportionally I do more of the former. Also I'm only just there with thinking of myself as a writer.
I've had so many dismissive comments about being a 'stay at home mum' over the years that I think I'd gladly tell them the details of every last place I've ever had a story published.
@Nik - No, definitely not just writers. I think for most people it starts as an honest attempt to find common ground, something they can talk about with someone who is doing something with their life which is utterly foreign to them.
Tell them, Rebecca! Tell them!
Mr Nevets! Yes, I'd go along with that. As I've said, I think genuine interest/curiosity/wanting to find common ground on unfamiliar territory is a really nice thing and that's something I'd (mostly) welcome. Unless I'd had a very difficult writing day and would just rather talk about something else!
Apologies to IDS there - your comment seemed to have slipped past me! Sorry!
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